Curse

Ooops · Jan 12, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Ok,

So i've now been pvping for about 6 months. I've played the various forms off pvp, RA, TA, HA (but not GvG).

I now consider myself to be an OK monk. At the moment I can regularly guide RA teams through 10 wins. I also have fairly decent win streaks in TA when I play with my guild, although not so much luck with pugs.

I know that I shouldn't be obsessed with the party screen, and recently I am relying more and more and scanning oponents to track what kind of damage is incoming. This has allowed me to get more use out of pre-prot skills and improve hex removal.

I regularly read the forums, for advice on builds etc. But I think, like most monks, that your skill bar doesn't vary that greatly, and it is inevitably the player that has a greater factor than the skills being used.

I guess what I am getting at is what is it that seperates the OK monks from the really good monks, and what advice does anyone have on improving further?

bungusmaximus · Jan 12, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I feel your pain, but for different reasons. Monk is my favourite profession by far, and I'm becoming more familiar with PvP as well. Problem is, I used to be a big Alliance Battle addict, but it's no challenge for me anymore. We roll 8 people with our team of 4 in most cases, that's really a miserable way to win a match.
Therefore I decided to do some more team arenas, the strategic objectives aren't that hard (just kill everyone) but the average player skill is much higher. Most of the time as soon as the match starts the opposing team gives me all its love (boom: backfire, migraine, conundrum, cripshot, 2 thumpers sitting on my face in a matter of seconds), result: match lost in a couple of seconds.
The monk is always everyone's bitch so I need a few tips as well to improve my style and tips on what the rest of the team can do to protect their healer. My build isn't the problem, it's a pretty standard ZB/prot build and it's solid, it's a skill/playing style issue mainly.

Senator Tom · Jan 12, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

basics to monking
1. use your fingers (left hand) to use skills.
2. be aware of over extending
3. be aware of the other team and whats coming at you (pre veil, etc)
4. know how to kite effectively

glountz · Jan 12, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Anticipating, positioning and knowledge are the keys.
From the above example, preprot yourself with protective spirit then shield of absorption and prekite the thumpers, remove Migraine with holy veil, then use 1/4 sec cast spells (typically reversal of fortune) to temper Arcane cunundrum and don't overextend from your teamates. Position yourself so you can heal your party while being out of range from casters, or forcing them to overextend out of healing range, etc...
But this is as a team that you need to improve also. Your damage dealers will have to spot unprotted or overextended softies, disrupters will have to disrupt correct characters etc... The knowledge is also important. As soon as you recognize what is the opponent build, you'll be able to counter it.
Good luck.

Divineshadows · Jan 12, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooops

I now consider myself to be an OK monk. At the moment I can regularly guide RA teams through 10 wins. I also have fairly decent win streaks in TA when I play with my guild, although not so much luck with pugs.

I know that I shouldn't be obsessed with the party screen, and recently I am relying more and more and scanning oponents to track what kind of damage is incoming. This has allowed me to get more use out of pre-prot skills and improve hex removal.

I guess what I am getting at is what is it that seperates the OK monks from the really good monks, and what advice does anyone have on improving further?

There are certain universal key concepts that apply to monking (well, most any class really) in TA, HA, and GvG:

- Avoid overhealing. Basic premise of monking that involves using your energy efficiently. Tossing heals on players at 85 to 95% health is quite wasteful unless you are facing a pure spike team.

- Be proactive. The more you can observe your opponents' actions, the better you can play. By observing what your opponents are doing, you get playing proactively rather than reactively. You find you have slightly more time to make decisions, because you know their actions before they complete. Observing any threatening melee characters' movements helps immensely when anticipating where the damage is going to come next. Look for patterns in the way that the opposing team sends their damage at your team and observe how they are attempting to tear through your team's defense.

- Analyze. During the initial phases of the match (first 10 to 20 seconds), analyze the opponent's build so you know what to expect later in the match. Understanding the concepts behind or having played many different builds helps this analysis go faster since you are more likely to understand what it is the opposing team is going to try to do to win. This type of analysis can help you make better decisions at key moments in the match. Facing a team with 3 hexers in TA that uses no conditions and you just had diversion land on you while you have an ally close to death? Use a condition removal skill on that ally to get rid of the diversion, allow you to heal that ally for the divine favor bonus, and allowing you to use another skill to save your teammate without having to wait out the diversion.

- Positioning matters. Even in TA deaths can occur due to overextension and snares/gales on the monk when the monk is attempting to close that distance. Look for opportunities to force positioning errors by the opposing team through smart kiting.

- Communicate. This may the most important point of all. Communicate with your team what from the opposing team is causing problems for you in a given match. This allows your team to place pressure on or some shutdown skills upon the person from the opposing team that is causing you problems. If you do not communicate these problems, then your team may continue forward in the match thinking everything is fine on your end. Enable yourself to receive information from your teammates when you are under more pressure (such as diversion incoming or shame incoming).

- Avoid predictability. Stronger teams quickly take note of patterns. If you always cast reversal of fortune on yourself immediately following getting up from a knockdown, then you have become predictable to the point where landing a distracting shot on that reversal of fortune becomes not only possible but also very likely. Be willing to mix up the sequence or way in which you do things when facing stronger teams in order to cast doubt or uncertainty upon them. The same principle of mixed strategy or uncertainty applies to your kiting patterns as well.

- Be decisive. At each point where you have a decision to make during a match make your decisions with expediency. A wrong decision is much often better than no decision. Hesitation kills while playing any class in guild wars, but it is particularly noticable when a monk does it. Only hesitate when you are doing it on purpose in those certain situations where you want to avoid predictability.

- Learn the tricks. Use any game mechanics that you are aware of to your advantage. This can be as simple as hiding your energy through the use of multiple weapon sets to protect against energy denial to something that requires more finesse such as learning how to scrape opposing melee off onto your teammates while kiting thus causing a slight delay in the damage being received by your team. Learn where on the health bar exactly where 80% and 50% is especially since certain spells or skills (final thrust, zealous benediction, signet of lost souls, light of deliverance, etc.) have special effects at these points.

- Be opportunistic. There are certain times in matches where your team is not under much pressure and you find yourself with little to do. Look for something to do. You could scan the opposing skill usage to point out key parts of their defense and relay this information to your offense as points that need to be attacked. You could find yourself in a position where you have the opportunity to body-block an opposing softie into a corner with your melee player. Or you could just simply wand to help up your team's pressure and perhaps get rid of a reversal with a "little hit".

- Come equipped. Use all 4 weapon sets and make them each have some unique purpose. Create multiple shields to defend against multiple types of damage (blunt, fire, piercing, dazed reduction, etc.) and be able to switch up your weapon sets quickly depending upon the team you are facing. Having too much in your inventory is better than having not enough. Spend as much time as possible on your low energy sets that make use of shields to boost your armor rating beyond 60.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

remove Migraine with holy veil, then use 1/4 sec cast spells (typically reversal of fortune) to temper Arcane cunundrum

A mesmer putting both migraine and arcane conundrum on your monk is one stupid mesmer likely with an even more stupid bar loaded with interrupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Tom

basics to monking
1. use your fingers (left hand) to use skills.

Different monks use their interface differently. As long as the monks finds a way to use their input interface efficiently, they will be fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Most of the time as soon as the match starts the opposing team gives me all its love (boom: backfire, migraine, conundrum, cripshot, 2 thumpers sitting on my face in a matter of seconds), result: match lost in a couple of seconds.
The monk is always everyone's bitch so I need a few tips as well to improve my style and tips on what the rest of the team can do to protect their healer.

I have a term for this style of play and I call it "monk stomp". Bad players and bad teams do it straight out of the gate and never change up. It's the typical childish immature play that sums up 99% of the strategy observed in random arenas. What the hell is your team doing while you are being allowed to be monk stomped when the gate opens? They're probably trying to play "monk stomp" as well and just so happen to be slightly worse at it. Either that or your teammates are doing nothing at all, because it certainly sounds like they aren't doing anything to hinder the opposing team's plans to "monk stomp" you.

Good players and good teams know better than to play "monk stomp" 100% of the time. In fact, they play it fairly infrequently in most team builds. They also know though those certain points in a match where the pressure on the opposing team is just right and how to push down on the accelerator and execute a few seconds of monk stomping.

Chaotic Legend · Jan 12, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

- - Analyze. During the initial phases of the match (first 10 to 20 seconds), analyze the opponent's build so you know what to expect later in the match. Understanding the concepts behind or having played many different builds helps this analysis go faster since you are more likely to understand what it is the opposing team is going to try to do to win. This type of analysis can help you make better decisions at key moments in the match. Facing a team with 3 hexers in TA that uses no conditions and you just had diversion land on you while you have an ally close to death? Use a condition removal skill on that ally to get rid of the diversion, allow you to heal that ally for the divine favor bonus, and allowing you to use another skill to save your teammate without having to wait out the diversion.

- Be decisive. At each point where you have a decision to make during a match make your decisions with expediency. A wrong decision is much often better than no decision. Hesitation kills while playing any class in guild wars, but it is particularly noticable when a monk does it. Only hesitate when you are doing it on purpose in those certain situations where you want to avoid predictability.

These two things out of most of that list were what helped me the most in learning how to monk in both RA and TA. Another thing to add to the list in my opinion would be to memorize as many skills and the effects that they have as you can.

Having to mouse over to the hex on you to see what it actually does is an almost instant way to lose in arenas. This also allows you to quickly decide if the hex is a big threat or something you can just let wear off with no ill effects. Being able to act confidently and quickly without contemplation is what I think what seperates the ok monks from the great monks.

Etrik · Jan 13, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

True. You'll find me on guildwiki nearly every day, just looking at various skills. Especially Mesmer/Necro ones, I'm unfamiliar with those classes (ie, I don't play them in PvP). I kinda *have* to know what Shame looks like in my effects window..

urania · Jan 13, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

well, i've tried "analyzing" my monking lately and have the feeling i pay too much attention to party window and too little attention to what's happening around me, especially if there's cond degen involved and have to draw a lot or if there's hex spam...
everything is ok at the beginning, i pay attention to innitial hexes and easily remove them, same goes for melee spikes such as assa with shadow prison etc, but it gets harder later on after you're starting to get presured by either a thump or trying to get shutdown by a mes or are targeted by some other caster.
when pressure is high it rarely crosses my mind to pay more atention to my surroundings and that often results in dreadfully bad kiting or bad use of soa/ZB on unpressured target that happens to be close or under 50 % hp due to degen, for example).
i'd appreciate any advice on how to get rid of that habit...or at least make it less dormant in my playing.
i have far less problems when i'm the primary target of the enemy's attac, but have a lot more problems if all other 3 teammates are being pressured and that simply cause i probably pay too little attenton to the things happening around me :<
it really makes me mad, since party window kinda spoiled me...ie when i deal with assas i'll know when their spike's coming by shadow prison hex right away, but combine that with another hey spammer ni enemy team and checking the party window only is gonna screw you.
also noticed i'm being slow lately...ie hesitating when to start healing or what spells to use. and that is really dreadful...slow reflexes are ftl all the way ;(
as for my interface...i never realy changed it so i heal by first clicking on my team mate and than moving all the way down to the spell located at the very bottom of the window. i tried changing interface lately, but i could by no means get used to a new one and it does make a difference, especially with spikes, f your party window and heal spells are too far apart ;_;

anyway, i'll gladly accept any advices on how to improve myself on that areas

anyway, what i'd add up is that maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a +15^50 staff in inventory to make staffing a bit more effective (when you aren't pressured, that is) XD
maybe also watch what kind of weapons the enemy casters wield by determing what their spells' main attribute prolly is, so you can know better what to expect.

Lord Mendes · Jan 13, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Try playing without the party window (would be funny with ZB

) and feeding off what you see and you hear ingame and on vent.

Saunter Returns · Jan 13, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Karla -

One big way to improve your awareness of the playing field is to play an offensive caster, and to a lesser extent, a melee toon. This will get you used to looking around the playing arena scoping out someone low on health to snipe, or to see if pressure is about to come your way, or any other number of moves a team can make.

That will translate into you not only looking around more - but also being able to look at the field while monking and 'reading their plays' (ala football), as you've played them yourself.

Also, I put my most important spell (infuse, zb, etc.) in the #1 slot, as it's very easy to hit the #1 key while clicking on your teammates name. That's almost the only shortcut key I ever use!

<3

urania · Jan 13, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

lol, i don't think playing without party window is such a good idea, tbh :S
i'd just let everyone die by accident ;p
happened once when i somehow didn't figure out i accidentally turned it off (beats me how i didn't notice it, tbh..)...it was ugly

@another, i did try playing an ofensive caster, but then i hardly pay attention to party window, or even worse, not at all :/

not to mention i just plain suck as anything else but monk, and even there the quality of my playing is questionable XD

as for the shortcut key for most important spells...the problem is i have this stupid habit to put elites either on #7 or #8 slot...rarely #6 or anything under ><

bungusmaximus · Jan 14, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Good players and good teams know better than to play "monk stomp" 100% of the time. In fact, they play it fairly infrequently in most team builds. They also know though those certain points in a match where the pressure on the opposing team is just right and how to push down on the accelerator and execute a few seconds of monk stomping.

So true, ppl go for the monk right away and leave the backline (being me) unprotected. relly sucks if theyre tunnel-visioned on the enemy healers while other professions are way more dangerous

Sakki · Jan 14, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooops

I know that I shouldn't be obsessed with the party screen, and recently I am relying more and more and scanning oponents to track what kind of damage is incoming. This has allowed me to get more use out of pre-prot skills and improve hex removal.

Very true, careful management of prots and hex removal can prevent alot of damage. Although l'm still working on it.

During down time, or when party members are not receiving alot of damage you can target an enemy unit and see what skills he is using. If he is a necromancer, what elite spell is he using? By better understanding your enemy you and your party would have a higher survivability against their attacks, making your monking skills better. I think

Ayumi · Jan 14, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Was about to type a medium sized 'guide', but thanks to Divineshadows' reply, you are already a very long way ahead of players who haven't read this, or simply don't know you should.

-Ayumi

Divineshadows · Jan 15, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

@another, i did try playing an offensive caster, but then i hardly pay attention to party window, or even worse, not at all :/

Good "midliner/support" characters which includes anything from a bow ranger to a elementalist do pay attention to the party window to get a quick summary for what is giving their team's defense problems and support/interrupt in the right spots accordingly. The same goes for good melee players in making good and fast decisions on where to apply pressure. The more these players have played monk, the more they know what their monk is likely going through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

So true, ppl go for the monk right away and leave the backline (being me) unprotected. relly sucks if theyre tunnel-visioned on the enemy healers while other professions are way more dangerous

Going straight for the monk foes in PvE works great, but some players in PvP actually think, anticipate, and react. Don't get me wrong here. Sometimes a monk can be the most "threatening" player on the opposing team, but oftentimes this is not the case.

The good teams approach opposing teams with an initial plan of matchup assignments. Then upon discovering certain skills on the opposing players (such as hex breaker, balanced stance, divert hexes, draw conditions, blinding surge, etc.) they will vary their matchups on the fly to get the most "money" out of each of the skills on each of the players bars. It's all about creating mismatches. For instance, a mesmer with diversion and gale will divert the player with balanced stance to knockout key skills while galing another player with hex breaker to create key periods of 3 second shutdown and non-kiting.

Ganks · Jan 26, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

If your defensive skills are good and youre in a good position if someone else is kiting you can kite next to them and try to block off the one chasing him. Even if he just moves around you... Each second counts as a monk especially when your mates are going down thats time enough to get off a DI. In most noob cases theyll give up on you when they realize they cant easily take you down when youre doing good and thats when you can get creative. Of course if you did this anywhere else you would probably get owned.

Morganas · Jan 27, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Learn triage. If you're up against heavy pressure and your energy is low, it's sometimes important to decide who's most important to keep alive and who to let die. That's why it's important for the monk to know not only your own team's skillbars, but also the enemy's.

Seamus Finn · Jan 28, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

as for the shortcut key for most important spells...the problem is i have this stupid habit to put elites either on #7 or #8 slot...rarely #6 or anything under ><

For any class really, but monking especially I can't recommend enough changing your interface/key maping. Specifically, I binds skills 6, 7, and 8 to r, f, and v. You have to move your autorun to a double tap if you like it that much, but otherwise, nothing is lost(c for self targeting is as good f). Anyway you look at it, you do not want to be "skill clicking" on monk(I suppose if your teammates are bound on your keypad you can play that way, but mousing constantly from party menu to skills will either get people killed, or give you carpal tunnel syndrome). After a while on this, you should notice a much better in game reaction. Also, I would at least recomend ignoring the party screen until the damage is coming. It's a good start towards preprotting. It's really a skill that most monks have to always be conscious of...

Gustin · Feb 02, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

As far as hitting keys, nothing beats the Nostromo n52 pad. It's useful for any class but monk's specifically where you have to have everything right there at your fingertips ready to hit when you need. Plus it's more comfortable than your keyboard.

Windjammer · Feb 10, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Excellent guide Divineshadows, I've learned a lot from it. I been monking now for a month or so and just starting to feel OK doing it. Big problem for me at first was concentrating on the party window to much and not surveying what the other team was doing in order to anticipate.

Another comment on why Monk Stomp isn't a good strat: When I was playing damage dealers I could often get a quick kill be hanging by the monk and waiting for him/her to get swarmed. The other team often had to overextend to do this and would allow me to quickly dispatch whoever had just come for our Monk.